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OGG tags vs ID3v2

Posted by MarcusO 
OGG tags vs ID3v2
February 25, 2003 10:47AM
A couple of people mentioned that ID3v2 tags are not working for OGG files.

They are, it's just that the OGG file specification has it's own tagging scheme (called OGG comments) - some programs (like tOGGer) read and write these and not the ID3v2 tags

Personally I feel that using ID3v2 tags for OGG files works well and I have no desire to use OGG comments - but if there is demand for an option to use OGG comments instead of ID3v2 tags then I will add it.

Let me know!
Roj
Re: OGG tags vs ID3v2
February 25, 2003 10:49AM
If it's in the OGG specification you should add it - and not just because I have a vested interest either (I use tOGGer <g>). A spec is a spec.



____
Roj

&quot;Faith manages.&quot;
- jms
Roj
Re: OGG tags vs ID3v2
February 25, 2003 12:34PM
An addendum:

As an initial step you could make CoolPlayer not barf on OGG Comments for playback (back to sweet gapless / popless play) and then when you implement the tagging function in the playlist, you could give users the option of writing *either* OGG Comments or ID3 V2 tags.

Why do I say this?

Because portable OGG players are just around the corner and the first OS they will support is Linux (in May of this year - the announcement was on Slashdot yesterday). CD RW players will follow. Now, if Linux is supported, you'd best believe that OGG Comments will be supported since it is part of that format's specification. That will very likely be carried over to the CD RW flavor (which is where Windows users come into the picture). If someone runs CoolPlayer and uses it to tag his or her OGGs and then purchases a portable device...

Significant annoyance.

Get the scene, jellybean? <g>



____
Roj

&quot;Faith manages.&quot;
- jms
Re: OGG tags vs ID3v2
February 25, 2003 06:11PM
I think messing up an OGG file with ID3* whatever tags meant for MP3, is simply a bug. You mess up the format of the file, even rendering it unusable for other OGG applications. PLEASE remove the tagging of OGG files from CP! Or do it the way it ought to be ;-) I had to edit several of my OGG files with a hex editor, after I just right clicked them in the playlist editor
:-(
On the other hand, CP rules, it is my second best player (Apollo is THE choice for me)

NoCPU
Re: OGG tags vs ID3v2
February 25, 2003 07:31PM
I agree with tagging in the correct format, this is very important, stick with the specs.

SanskritFritz: have you had problems with OGG files using ID3v2 in other apps? I never did much research into tagging, I just always assumed Coolplayer was doing it correctly, I have many OGG files all tagged using Coolplayer, I'm not going to be happy If I find its screwed all the files up in someway...
Roj
Re: OGG tags vs ID3v2
February 25, 2003 08:47PM
"On the other hand, CP rules, it is my second best player (Apollo is THE choice for me)"

Interesting.

The following is excerpted from the Apollo author's own site:

*** Begin Excerpt ***

"It would probably take only about two months for one coder to recode Apollo from scratch. Excluding the decoder, though, which in my opinion should be replaced anyway with the MAD decoder because of its sound quality.

The decoder is actually worse than many other decoders in mathematical sense. This can be seen for example by calculating the least squares distance to the original signal (i.e. the signal before it is encoded in mp3). The perceived quality, however, seems to be better (or at least many like to think so) due to some choices made in decoding quality/speed trade offs. Those trade offs are always made based on listening tests.

The decoder is old and from the time when 112 kb/s and 128 kb/s were the most popular bitrates used. For this reason the quality in higher bitrates is not so great compared to others."

*** End Excerpt ***

CoolPlayer uses MAD.



____
Roj

&quot;Faith manages.&quot;
- jms
Smack
Re: OGG tags vs ID3v2
February 26, 2003 04:54AM
By adding ID3 tags to vorbis files, you break them. If you don't want to add Vorbis comments(you don't mean ogg comments), fine, but don't break everybody's oggs.

-Smack.
Re: OGG tags vs ID3v2
February 26, 2003 04:59AM
Let me put this in no uncertain terms.

id3v2 is *not* to be used in Ogg streams. You are purposely vilotaing a spec, for no better reason than you kinda feel like it. You are breaking software. You are doing the equivalent of writing notes in black marker across the shiny side of a CD. Sure it still plays. Most of the time. In some players. But of course, no one would actually be stupid enough to do that.

The only reason this even has any hope of 'working' is because Ogg sync is rejecting the out-of-band garbage between pages and error-correcting/recapturing around it. You're causing Ogg apps to have to recapture after every id3v2 burst (making stream demux about 1000x more expensive). If you accidentally stick this crap between the two wrong pages, you will corrupt an Ogg bitstream so that it won't even play.

Don't try to rationalize why you think you're doing anyone, including yourself, a favor. This is not a matter of 'opinion'. DON'T FUCKING DO IT.

Thank you.

Monty
Author of the Ogg spec
NoCPU
Re: OGG tags vs ID3v2
February 26, 2003 08:02AM
ok... does anybody know of a program that can remove ID3 tags from OGG files and clean them up }:[
Re: OGG tags vs ID3v2
February 26, 2003 09:02AM
Ok ok, strong feelings here )))

I'll add code to Read/Write OGG comments & remove any ID3ness from OGG files at the same time.....
NoCPU
Re: OGG tags vs ID3v2
February 26, 2003 09:27AM
Thanks MarcusO, so just to be absolutely sure here, ID3 tags used in Coolplayer simply add extra information to the OGG file format, it doesnt write over any data thats already there, so if I remove the tag in the OGG file it will be the same as before no corruption?
Re: OGG tags vs ID3v2
February 26, 2003 10:13AM
Absolutely, not a single byte of the original OGG file is affected by CP's ID3v2 tagging - the ID3v2 tag is just added to the start and the ID3v1 tag is added to the end - removing the ID3v2 stuff will not harm your OGGs in any way whatsoever.

A good option for you would be to wait for CoolPlayer211 (just around the corner) - this will not only remove the ID3 tags - but will add the tag data into the OGG comment (where it is supposed to go)
NoCPU
Re: OGG tags vs ID3v2
February 26, 2003 12:12PM
Thanks for clearing that up MarcusO.

I'll keep that program in mind Roj, cheers.
Re: OGG tags vs ID3v2
February 26, 2003 07:23PM
MarcusO: thank you. And sorry for piling on. In the past player authors have been loathe to honor the spec (practically any spec for that matter), and I'm just getting tired of it. I'll save my venting for more deserving targets ;-)

It's not just pedantry either; as an example, sticking an id3v2 tag at the beginning of an Ogg file would render that Ogg file unplayable in most of the small crop of Ogg hardware players slated to come out this year.

Monty
Re: OGG tags vs ID3v2
April 06, 2003 03:35PM
thank you MarcusO

I NEED a short player supporting ogg tags, cause i think ogg is the coolest thing in the world.

Everyone should support it, microsoft too. (MS media player 9 is the best player in the world)

Ill download V211, but when?????

Marcellus



JOLOLOITIIIII
Re: OGG tags vs ID3v2
April 12, 2003 10:43AM
I've just sent some code which reads Ogg tags correct to you guys.
Should have looked here first I suspose, sorry.
If you want I'll do the write support as well.

Russ.

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